Epstein is Pizzagate w/ Liz Crokin

The Spaces brought journalist Ben Swann and author Liz Crokin together for a two‑hour, cross‑platform live session to revisit their decade of coverage on “Pizzagate” and argue that recent Epstein document releases corroborate long‑standing allegations of elite child exploitation. Swann outlined how the original John Podesta emails and alleged food “code words” became central to the story, while Crokin traced earlier cases (Franklin cover‑up, McMartin Preschool) and described a media/Wikipedia “debunking” echo chamber and real‑time content scrubbing. They criticized mainstream interviews and coverage (e.g., Megyn Kelly, CNN) and discussed ritual/occult themes, art, and symbolism tied to public figures. Callers (Lionel, Jordan, Garland Nixon, Sean Stone, others) explored whether ongoing investigations exist, potential military‑intelligence jurisdiction, and how public awareness and platform policies shape outcomes. The group debated pathways to accountability—particularly a RICO strategy that starts with lower‑level traffickers and moves up—while emphasizing the need to protect victims and to unredact/redact appropriately. They also floated trafficking vectors (open borders/NGOs, war zones like Ukraine, and e‑commerce allegations such as Wayfair) and noted Hollywood’s cultural role. The session closed with expectations for more disclosures, possible congressional testimony, and practical steps to amplify information despite social‑media constraints.

“Epstein is Pizzagate” – Cross‑platform Livestream and Twitter Spaces Discussion Notes

Format and Participants

• Hybrid format: simultaneous video livestream (YouTube, Instagram, X, etc.) and audio Twitter/X Spaces to enable real‑time audience participation.
• Hosts: Ben Swan (Speaker 1) and Liz Crokin (Speaker 2).
• Call‑in contributors included Lionel (Speaker 3), Jordan (Speaker 4), Ali (Speaker 5), CAG Drogo (Speaker 6, likely), Mike Smith (Out of Shadows director), Garland Nixon, Sean Stone, Sir Oliver, Jason, and Sanzu/Sun Tzu.

Core Thesis: “Epstein is Pizzagate”

• Ben Swan and Liz Crokin assert that Pizzagate is not a debunked conspiracy theory but a real phenomenon involving wealthy, powerful individuals engaged in child sexual exploitation. They emphasize a ritualistic/satanic dimension at the highest levels.
• The claim links the recent “Epstein files” disclosures to Pizzagate’s core patterns, arguing that the newly surfaced materials corroborate the existence of interconnected elites conspiring to traffic and abuse children.

Origins and Narrative Control of Pizzagate

• Source of Pizzagate per hosts: John Podesta’s leaked emails (circa 2009–2016), containing repeated references to “pizza,” “hot dogs,” “cheese,” “pasta,” “dominoes,” and other terms they believe to be pedophile code words.
• Media “debunk” framing:
  • Ben Swan recalls mainstream outlets initially attributing Pizzagate to “Macedonian sheep farmers,” a narrative he says obscured the email origins.
  • “Wikipedia technique”: Ben describes how hit pieces from outlets (e.g., The Daily Beast, Media Matters) were used as circular citations on Wikipedia, locking his page and branding the story “debunked” without fact‑based refutation.
• Ben notes his 2016 TV report on Pizzagate amassed millions of views before being taken down; he says reuploaded versions appear to be missing a critical 15‑second segment explaining “cheese pizza” (CP) as code for child pornography and referencing FBI documents on pedophile symbolism and terminology.
• Liz states that Urban Dictionary entries and mainstream articles referencing such code words were scrubbed or altered in real time in 2016; she claims entries later reappeared with modified definitions.
• Ben/Liz emphasize no denial from Podesta about email authenticity; they critique claims of “debunked” without evidence.

Comet Ping Pong, James Alefantis, and Symbolism

• James Alefantis (owner of Comet Ping Pong in DC) is discussed as a frequent Podesta contact whose social media and venue branding allegedly displayed pedophile iconography.
  • Ben cites GQ listing Alefantis among “50 most powerful people in Washington,” questioning how a single pizzeria owner reaches such influence.
  • Logo claims: “Besta Pizza” (associated) allegedly incorporated the “boy lover” triangle symbol; Liz/Ben say it was changed after online scrutiny.
  • Bands: Performers at Comet (including Heavy Breathing) allegedly used pedophile symbols and lyrics supportive of child exploitation.
  • Liz notes Alefantis posted recognized slang like “chicken lovers” (defined as adult men attracted to boys) and images suggestive of minors for “sale.”
• Critique of media handling:
  • Hosts criticize Megyn Kelly’s friendly interview of Alefantis (no questions on his posts/imagery) and argue it served as cover for Pizzagate dismissal.
• Open invitation from Ben to Alefantis and the Podestas to come on and explain the imagery, connections, and context.

Epstein Files and Code Language Patterns

• Ben/Liz emphasize recurrent references to “pizza,” “pizza parties,” and “hot dogs” in the Epstein dumps (Ben mentions “over 911” such references) as inconsistent with normal adult email content.
• They argue code usage was overt pre‑2016, then shifted post‑2016:
  • Lionel questions why communications were so thinly veiled compared to typical criminal discretion.
  • Ben/Liz respond that Pizzagate’s exposure likely forced code changes; they’ve observed unfamiliar food words appearing in later emails (post‑2016) in contexts that don’t fit actual food.
  • Ben notes FBI flagged pedophile symbols/terms as far back as 2007–2008; Liz says Urban Dictionary had code references by ~2010.
  • They add that pedophiles themselves (on 4chan/8chan) publicly recognized the code usage in the Podesta emails, revealing the patterns to the broader public.

Ritual/Satanic Elements and Art

• The discussion extends beyond sexual exploitation to ritualistic abuse:
  • “Spirit cooking” ceremonies tied to Marina Abramović, with claimed satanic/nocuous symbolism.
  • Artwork in Tony Podesta’s home and John Podesta’s office discussed as depicting cannibalism and murder victims (e.g., sculpture referencing a Jeffrey Dahmer victim).
• Psychological barriers:
  • Liz describes public cognitive dissonance: the topic is so depraved (including alleged baby/toddler abuse) that people reject it or rationalize it as impossible.
  • Celebrity worship complicates acceptance; many alleged participants are figures people grew up admiring.

Network Structure: Outer vs Inner Circles, “After‑parties,” and Logistics

• Ben suggests concentric circles: many public figures may have brushed against Epstein socially, fewer knowingly participated, and a small inner circle executed the worst crimes.
• Liz corroborates with Hollywood/media anecdotes:
  • “After‑parties” separate insiders from general attendees; the most illicit activities occur after journalists and lower‑tier guests are asked to leave.
  • Mike Smith (stunt coordinator, Out of Shadows) notes never seeing children at public events, but later recognized coded/occult elements in offices and sets.
• Underground infrastructure:
  • Liz claims tunnels and subterranean facilities at Epstein’s island and Zorro Ranch; she notes Ghislaine Maxwell’s submarine and helicopter licenses as consistent with covert transport.
  • Playboy Mansion alleged tunnels connecting to other homes, based on whistleblowers.

Migration, War, and Supply Chains for Trafficking

• Ali and Ben discuss alternative pipelines:
  • Open borders: Unaccompanied alien children (UACs), NGOs, and local economic incentives lead agencies to “look the other way.”
  • War zones: Ukraine described as a likely supply vector (orphans, dead parents, chaotic records).
    • Ben references emails involving Zelensky and Epstein circles discussing “opportunities” in Ukraine and claims Zelensky keeps inflating statistics of kids “taken by Russia.”
    • Liz mentions Marina Abramović’s proposed involvement in Ukrainian cultural institutions, asserting consistent patterns with trafficking under cover of aid.

Technology, Platforms, and Public Perception Post‑Covid

• Both note that social tech advances (2015–2024) transformed dissemination capacity; in 2016, video on Instagram/Twitter was limited/new.
• Censorship:
  • Instagram bans # pizzagate with a warning about incitement.
  • YouTube/Meta properties described as suppressive; X (Twitter) perceived as more open but “under test.”
• Cultural shifts:
  • Garland Nixon recounts being invited (by a DC lobbyist) to a “Las Vegas‑style” no‑pants sex party, which opened his eyes.
  • Sean Stone emphasizes public rejection of celebrity culture (declining viewership for Globes/Grammys) and notes AI’s impact makes visual evidence harder to trust.

Investigations, Justice, and Strategy

• Ongoing investigations:
  • Jordan asks whether redactions signal active probes.
  • Liz cites Todd Blanche’s statement that some redactions protect ongoing investigations (e.g., SDNY), giving her optimism.
  • Ben is skeptical, citing prior claims from public figures (e.g., Dan Bongino, Kash Patel, Pam Bondi) that “there is no list,” followed by large dumps; he calls handling “bungled,” though remains open to being proved wrong.
• Military intelligence angle:
  • CAG Drogo and others argue infiltration across institutions elevates the matter to national security, possibly shifting jurisdiction beyond DOJ to military intelligence.
  • “Israel last” and Q‑related framing mentioned by contributors, suggesting complex geopolitical constraints.
• Trump’s role (contested interpretations):
  • Liz posits Trump sought Epstein’s arrest in his first term; Jeff Sessions and Alex Acosta’s appointment were strategic to force media coverage (Acosta’s resignation made Epstein unignorable).
  • Ben notes Epstein’s files showing Epstein disliked Trump and tried to block his election, countering narratives of alliance.
• RICO approach (consensus):
  • Liz advocates starting with lower‑level traffickers (cartels, gangs like MS‑13/CJNG) who facilitate supply and flipping them upward.
  • Ben agrees RICO is the only viable path to reach higher‑level principals, as individual proofs are hard with decade‑old emails and destroyed evidence.

Out of Shadows and Early Coverage Costs

• Mike Smith praises Ben and Liz as early, courageous exposers; Out of Shadows featured Ben’s segment to contextualize broader Hollywood exploitation and occult messaging.
• Ben recounts pastoral consultation before airing his 2016 piece; CBS initially approved it, it went viral, then corporate/legal pressure forced takedown; he reiterates duty to protect children over career.

Conservative Influencers’ Silence

• Ben observes many influencers avoiding the topic despite virality on X.
• Liz asserts some are told or paid to avoid it; she criticizes performative concern that stops at surface cultural battles (e.g., trans issues) without addressing alleged elite roots in the Epstein/Pizzagate complex.

Historical Parallels and Disclosures

• Sir Oliver raises the Franklin Cover‑Up/Boys Town precedent; worries elites escape justice and asks if now will be different.
• Liz references FBI declassifications released during Trump’s term on the McMartin Preschool case:
  • She says newly released pages showed evidence of tunnels and satanic artifacts previously denied; however, mainstream media and Wikipedia have not reflected these disclosures.

Action Items, Open Questions, and Next Steps (as discussed)

• Evidence development:
  • Identify and decode post‑2016 replacement terminology in emails.
  • Seek unredactions of email names tied to “pizza”/food code usage.
• Justice pathways:
  • Pursue RICO cases beginning with lower‑level traffickers; target supply chain actors (gangs/cartels) to flip higher‑ups.
  • Consider national security framing for military involvement given alleged infiltration and foreign intelligence links.
  • Monitor congressional moves: Liz cites plans for closed‑door testimony of Bill and Hillary Clinton on Epstein.
  • Anthony Weiner laptop: Liz mentions Sen. Grassley requested full contents by Dec 28 (status unclear); would be a major disclosure if released.
• Media and platform strategy:
  • Capitalize on X’s relative openness; expect Meta/YouTube suppression.
  • Counter narrative control and “Wikipedia technique” with primary documents and forensic analyses.
• Victim protection:
  • Ali warns rescue operations are hindered by local economic incentives and corrupted local enforcement; federal/state coordination required to avoid retraumatization.

Highlights and Notable Moments

• Pilot of a cross‑platform, simultaneous Spaces + video format.
• Ben asserts a 15‑second evidentiary segment was removed from reuploads of his 2016 Pizzagate report.
• Repeated emphasis that Epstein disliked Trump in emails, undermining popular “alignment” narratives.
• Open invitations to James Alefantis and the Podestas to publicly explain their symbolism, emails, and connections.
• Wayfair angle resurfaces: Liz notes an $8,000 Epstein purchase from Wayfair appears in the dump; she connects this to earlier claims of high‑priced items named after missing children.
• Broad call to move beyond influencer complacency and address alleged elite root causes rather than surface cultural battles.

Tone and Accuracy Notes

• These notes reflect the speakers’ claims and arguments during the session. Many assertions involve contested allegations, interpretations of symbolism, and inferences about code words and networks. Where possible, the notes attribute positions to speakers and avoid presenting disputed claims as established fact.

Closing

• Liz remains “eternally optimistic” that mounting disclosures, public awakening, and pressure will force mainstream coverage and eventually justice (arrests/convictions). Ben, more cautious, agrees RICO is the likely legal strategy and supports further public exposure and investigation.